Australia’s two most populous states – New South Wales and Victoria – are facing intense political leadership questions for very different reasons. So what does the future hold for Daniel Andrews and Gladys Berejiklian? Mark Kenny discusses ministerial judgement, controlling narratives, and asking the right questions with Kieran Gilbert, David Caldicott, and Marija Taflaga.

In New South Wales Premier Gladys Berejiklian still appears to have strong public support, but just how damaging will the ICAC revelations be for her? Meanwhile, in neighbouring Victoria Premier Daniel Andrews has been decisive in his response to COVID-19, but has it come at a cost of diminishing public support and an inability to reimpose restrictions if coronavirus infections pick up again? Joining Professor Mark Kenny to answer these questions and more are Sky News Chief News Anchor Kieran Gilbert, emergency medicine consultant Dr David Caldicott, and regular podleague and political scientist Dr Marija Taflaga.

Kieran Gilbert is Chief News Anchor for Sky News, co-anchor of First Edition and anchor of AM Agenda on Sky News Live.

David Caldicott is an emergency consultant at the emergency department of the Calvary Hospital in Canberra and a Senior Lecturer in the College of Health and Medicine at The Australian National University.

Dr Marija Taflaga is Director of ANU Centre for the Study of Australian Politics and a lecturer in the ANU School of Politics and International Relations. Her major research is on political parties and particularly the Liberal Party of Australia.

Professor Mark Kenny is a Professor in the ANU Australian Studies Institute. He came to the university after a high-profile journalistic career including six years as chief political correspondent and national affairs editor for The Sydney Morning HeraldThe Age, and The Canberra Times.

Democracy Sausage with Mark Kenny is available on Apple PodcastsSpotifyGoogle Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We’d love to hear your feedback for this podcast series! Send in your questions, comments, or suggestions for future episodes to You can also Tweet us @APPSPolicyForum or join us on the Facebook group.

This podcast is produced in partnership with The Australian National University.

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