Anyone engaged in policymaking knows that it’s a complex business. But how often do policymakers take the time to think about the number of complex systems that have a bearing on their work? On the latest podcast, Helen Sullivan chats with Deborah Blackman, Claudia Pahl-Wostl, and Datu Buyung Agusdinata about how thinking about the science of systems can lead to better policymaking.

Professor Helen Sullivan is Director of the ANU Crawford School of Public Policy.

Professor Claudia Pahl-Wostl is Director of the Institute for Environmental Systems Research at the University of Osnabrück, Germany, and co-chair of the Global Water System Project.

Assistant Professor Datu Buyung Agusdinata is a Senior Sustainability Scientist at the Julie Ann Wrigley Global Institute of Sustainability.

Professor Deborah Blackman is a member of the Public Service Research Group in the School of Business at UNSW, Canberra.

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